Arte’s Angle in Anaheim

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I’ve seen my share of typos regarding the Los Angeles “Angles” of Anaheim online and on Facebook that my choice of words in the headline is deliberate.  As a baseball fan, I think we all need to take a breath here for a minute on the negotiations between the city of Anaheim and the Angels.  Now exhale.

First off, the only reason that particular part of Anaheim (where the stadium is off the 57 freeway) is valuable (among the most valuable land in the County if not the nation…please) is because of a certain tenant, namely the Angels.  Should they move, the value of that land simply drops.  And with it, that valuable real estate becomes a big empty parking lot for most of the year.  The Forum in Inglewood was valuable real estate too until the Lakers and Kings left.  When was the last time you were there?  And Staples is such a nice facility.

By giving Angels owner Arte Moreno the rights to the land surrounding Anaheim Stadium, the city council has effectively given him his new stadium location from which a new stadium can replace the aging Angels Stadium, relieve Anaheim of $130 to $150 million in renovation costs while creating a lot of union and non-union construction jobs.  The city can then get out of the business of managing a stadium and start paying more attention to parks, business development and public safety.  Consider how Yankee Stadium and Tropicana Field were constructed in the Bronx and in Houston alongside the Yankees and Astros previous baseball homes and you have an idea how a new Angels Stadium can rise quickly in the shadow of their aging park.

Arte’s big ticket free agents show he’s willing to spend money to create a winner. And while the result on the field isn’t what Angels fans want, you can’t fault the owner for going after the elite free agents (my opinion: time for a new manager).

I’ve read the out of breath posts in the Orange Juice Blog and in Save Anaheim; Leave it to Irvine’s Bill Shankin at the LA Times to summarize what the negotiations mean from the perspective of the Angels. From the story:

The council vote authorizes negotiations based on deal points that include the team calling itself the Los Angeles Angels and dropping the “of Anaheim” suffix.

The Angels also would extend their lease through 2036 — and possibly as long as 2057 — in exchange for development rights to the parking lots around the stadium.

The stadium needs $130 million to $150 million in capital improvements over the next 20 years, according to a city report. That estimate accounts solely for infrastructure — electrical maintenance and upgrades, concrete repairs, waterproofing and such—– at the stadium.

The Angels would pay all of that cost and would pay above and beyond for any improvements that would generate additional revenue for the team, for example, more luxury seating.

The total costs might be so substantial, Black said, Moreno might well consider razing Angel Stadium and building a new one on the adjacent parking lot.

With no cost for land acquisition, Black said Moreno could build a new ballpark for $450 million to $500 million. Carpino said that could be an option.

You have to love a sportswriters take on it without all the politics involved.

The consultants for the city maintain Moreno has the means to build a stadium somewhere else.  But if he doesn’t need to buy the land somewhere else, he can build right next to Angels Stadium for a lot less money and keep the team here.  For a kid who grew up in New York, I always knew the California Angels played in Anaheim.  It doesn’t matter if they have Los Angeles or Anaheim or California associated with their name.  What does matter is the Angels play here and not someone else in So Cal.

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I like having the Angels a short drive away.  If they move to Irvine, even better.  They can move to other cities in Southern California.  It doesn’t take a lot of imagination to see them in Irvine, Near Yorba Linda/Brea, Long Beach or Mission Viejo.  And putting up a stadium once a site is selected can go pretty quickly (see how fast the Patriot’s build Gillette Stadium to replace aging Foxboro Stadium).

So for the hand ringing of Jason Young, Greg Diamond, and Vern Nelson, a simple question: when was the last time any one of you went to an Angels game?  From the old photos of the Stadium you’re using in your posts, I’ll guess it’s been years if ever.  Call me fellas; you have my cell.  I have a list of about 5 questions.  Basic stuff.  I bet you won’t have a clue on the answer, nor can you answer them in seconds without having to use Google.

Did the City Council go too far?  Probably. But a deal to keep the team here for up to 43 years seems to be a good one and a new stadium will create lots of labor union construction jobs and lots of new tax dollars pumping into the Anaheim coffers. There are hundreds of businesses around the stadium that would flat out die should the Angels leave.  Perhaps before we all lose our minds, we should wait to hear more from the team about what their specific plans are and might be and how they intend to work with the city that’s been so generous to them for so long.

If “ifs and buts were candy and nuts, it’d be Christmas everyday.”  All the analysis to date reflects short term thinking by people who have no idea about the business of baseball let alone how fans will react.  Let’s look at the whole story from both sides before we start jumping to conclusions.

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  55 comments for “Arte’s Angle in Anaheim

  1. junior
    September 5, 2013 at 10:09 pm

    “.. (my opinion: time for a new manager).”

    I disagree – time for a new GM – fire Dipoto. He’s at fault for decimating our pitching staffs – minors & majors. And for bringing us the MLB flop of the year Josh Hamilton.

    I basically agree with the balance of your article – well done Dan.

  2. Save Anaheim
    September 6, 2013 at 12:00 pm

    Dan – Did you watch Mayor Tait’s presentation? Anaheim went from generating $4-5 million to roughly 1 million. Now with if this new deal goes through, we get even less. How is that a good deal for the people of Anaheim? This isn’t a negotiation, it’s just another giveaway to wealthy business interests.

    • September 6, 2013 at 3:45 pm

      so we’re talking about the cost of a middle reliever? What is a good deal for the people of Anaheim is keeping the Angels here. Forrest for the trees Jason. How many millions will the city have to spend to upgrade the stadium they shouldn’t be in the business of managing in the first place? How many millions will be lost to local businesses around the park if the team leaves? The Ducks are not enough and there’s no NBA franchise on the horizon.

  3. Greg Diamond
    September 6, 2013 at 1:26 pm

    Well, Dan, if you’re going to take this level of effort to embarrass yourself, I suppose it’s fair that I help you out. I just have time for this much today.

    The notion that one has a clearer idea as to whether this deal is a giveaway or not if one has recently attended an Angels’ game is — I’m sorry that there’s no better word for it — really stupid. Do you have an opinion on bombing Syria? When’s the last time you’ve been to Syria? Do you have an opinion on the City of Bell pensions? When’s the last time you’ve been to Bell’s City Hall? Show more self-respect than that when you write.

    I’ll tell you one thing that does help, though: when’s the last time that you’ve been to an Anaheim City Council meeting when they’re in the midst of a giveaway? THAT’s a hell of a lot more relevant than having seen the rally money on the big screen in person.

    If you were a real friend to Jordan Brandman, you would stop enabling him and start concentrating on how to keep him out of jail. Desperate PR will only help him so much — and it’s less than his being the only Democrat involved in a money scandal, and therefore the perfect sacrificial lamb, will hurt him.

    • September 6, 2013 at 3:48 pm

      When Jordan Brandman commits an offense that warrants his arrest, I’ll be happy to light a torch. I am simply a baseball fan who wants to see the Angels stay in Anaheim. Are you really lecturing me about an embarrassing blog post after you guys published three photos of strippers in one? I went and had lunch at the Tilted Kilt after that; the bartender there would like to punch someone in the mouth for even suggesting his money in his paycheck comes from a strip club.

      No takers on the phone call with basic Angels questions….thought so

      • Greg Diamond
        September 6, 2013 at 4:30 pm

        When Jordan Brandman commits an offense that warrants his arrest, you’ll neither recognize it not admit its existence. You don’t even see the problem at hand with these giveaways.

        You’re changing the subject all over the place rather than addressing the points I raised. I just wanted to let you know that I noticed.

        I’m not feeling like talking to you by phone now. But tell the Tilted Kilt bartender that his paycheck comes from the owners of a strip club (or was it two?) who pay his salary in part with the proceeds from the same. Maybe he’ll punch you in the mouth.

        P.S. Just give me your “basic” questions here; on my honor, I won’t look up the answers. Here’s a few for you:

        (1) Who was Alex Johnson and why was he big news?

        (2) At one time, the tandem of Nolan Ryan and another pitcher was considered the best in the American League. Who was the other guy?

        (3) Why did their star Lyman Bostock stop playing for the Angels?

        (4) What important role did the Angels play in the humiliation of Bill Buckner?

        (5) What is the function of Gene Autry Way?

        • September 6, 2013 at 5:55 pm

          #1 Alex Johnson — first Angel to win a batting title; beat Yaz on the last game of the season. Fined for being a lazy player and not running out grounders. Started off on fire and cooled off.

          #2; Ryan and Clyde Wright were a pretty good pair for the California Angels in the 1970s…but that is an entirely debatable question. Wright won 22 games one year…early 70s I think.

          #3 bang, bang…dead in the Midwest; a real tragedy; late 70s..I was in high school.

          #4 Mookie Wilson and the Mets played a bigger role in the humiliation of Bill Buckner (who later tried to commit suicide in Boston in 1986 by jumping in front of a bus but it went between his legs. The Angels were one strike away from their first AL pennant and World Series appearance when Don Baylor smacked a homer (who gave up the home run and what happened to him?). But this is a broad question; Boston kids would verbally humiliate Buckner’s kids in school to the point where he packed up and moved to Idaho; the Angels played no roll in the actions of these massholes.

          #5 Gene Autry Way makes it easy to get to the Big A off the 5 Freeway

          How did I do?

  4. Gustavo Arellano
    September 6, 2013 at 3:00 pm

    Bloviator: The only person more pompous than you is Dan when he talks about baseball. Kudos for a very perceptive comment here…

    • September 6, 2013 at 3:52 pm

      From the guy who thought Vladimir Guerrero was washed up and still had the best batting average for the Halos the last time they were in the playoffs and still made it to the All Star game the year after the Angels released him.

      But happy to see you blowing kisses to Diamond

    • Greg Diamond
      September 6, 2013 at 4:10 pm

      Now you’re freaking me out.

  5. Greg Diamond
    September 6, 2013 at 4:37 pm

    “What is a good deal for the people of Anaheim is keeping the Angels here.”

    A good deal at any price? What if I told you that (supposedly) the only way to keep the Angels here was to forgo a half a billion dollars in what would otherwise be income into the general fund. Would you amend that statement at all?

    “How many millions will be lost to local businesses around the park if the team leaves?”

    Good question. If you heard the sales job provided by the “expert staff” hired by the city, you’ll have another good question: “what objective studies can we actually trust to answer that question?” Because those guys are just trying to sell people something. And here’s another good question: do you think that the proper way to evaluate the effect of the Angels’ presence on the Anaheim business community is to talk about its effect on The Catch — a restaurant whose parking lot is WITHIN THE PARKING LOT OF ANGELS’ STADIUM? Because some people seem to think that they’re a representative example, or something.

    You know what could easily be on the horizon if the Angels leave? Another Major League Baseball team. One with an owner not intent — or I should say less intent than the Council — on screwing the City.

    • September 6, 2013 at 5:40 pm

      have you ever been to a game? If your knowledge of the businesses around the stadium is limited to The Catch, you really don’t get it? Take a drive around there sometimes please.

    • September 6, 2013 at 5:43 pm

      Another baseball team coming here after the Angels leave; ask LA how much they threw away when Houston outpositioned them for the franchise now known as “The Texans.” How many tens of millions would Anaheim have to spend to attract another team here?

      And you accuse me of embarrassing myself.

      Still no phone calls for answers on basic Angels questions. And they are easy ones for true Angels fans

      • Greg Diamond
        September 6, 2013 at 5:54 pm

        How much would we have to spend to get some team from a minor market to relocate here? The amount of money we’d have to pay to whoever opens the door when they start beating it down.

        Go find an expert and ask them if anyone would like to move their team here.

        Not calling you, Dan, because I really don’t want to talk to you. Answer the five questions that I posed to you above in writing.

        • September 6, 2013 at 5:59 pm

          Minor market in the Major Leagues? Where? Doesn’t exist. No major league team in Portland, OR, Charlotte, NC, New Orleans, Buffalo, NY, Indianapolis, Orlando, Austin, TX, Oklahoma City…..

          My five questions are even easier….maybe Jason Young or Vern would like to try?

        • September 7, 2013 at 9:15 am

          Greg — you honestly think Milwaukee, Toronto or Kansas City would move to So Cal if the Angels leave? And what about the MLB territorial rights Cynthia keeps bringing up? Arte could move someone else –out of Anaheim — but would block any franchise seeking to come into Anaheim. Thanks for the deconstruction. Pretty funny.

  6. September 6, 2013 at 5:28 pm

    Greg, if your blog fact-checking and research is any reflection of the quality of your legal work, then you are one crappy attorney.

    And be careful, Dan: if you continue disagreeing with him, Greg may unleash upon you one of those interminable quagmires of verbosity he calls blog posts.

    • Greg Diamond
      September 6, 2013 at 5:58 pm

      The mark of a lying imbecile, Matt, is making general charges so that you won’t be challenged about specifics — as you do above. Challenge me on whatever facts you wish — as Council Members did because I know, though they apparently don’t, the implications of signing a Memorandum of Understanding with a binding clause requiring good faith negotiation — and we’ll argue specifics.

      (I just want to once again thank Curt Pringle for hiring this poor level of lobbyist as an adversary for me.)

      The blog post was already up about five minutes after you posted. So crack out a new pseudonym with a new IP Address and I’ll meet your new persona there.

  7. September 6, 2013 at 5:41 pm

    BTW, Greg: how goes Orange Juice’s blockbuster Brown Act investigation of that Chamber meeting? Have you and Cynthia found anymore photos on FB that you think you can use to indict someone?

  8. Greg Diamond
    September 6, 2013 at 5:50 pm

    I spent about two hours driving around there yesterday with Brian Chuchua documenting the relationship between the locations of the stadium, convention center, various Disneyland sites (including parking), the proposed streetcar, the current Amtrak station, the ARTIC station, the Honda Center, and the 5 and the 57 freeways. A good part of that is on video, which will be uploaded to YouTube when there’s time for a story (or two next week.)

    For me, it’s been about five years. I’ve dropped off my kids and nephews there more recently.

    And two speakers for the Catch were there at the meeting — I take it that you have not viewed the video — talking about how important it was for local businesses, using the example of The Catch. (I think that one also said that the McDonalds on State College also couldn’t survive without the Angels, which seems awfully unlikely.

    Hope that satisfies your demand.

    • September 6, 2013 at 6:02 pm

      Great…. but haven’t been to a game in 5 years. Pathetic. No wonder Arte wants to move the team. You know the tickets can be as low as $5? Its a great place to watch a game and while I wish the Angels were better than their record this season, I still root for the home team.

  9. Greg Diamond
    September 6, 2013 at 6:00 pm

    We don’t need any more photos than the ones we already have.

    You’ll be among the first to hear about any developments, Matt.

  10. September 6, 2013 at 6:03 pm

    I can send you the ones I shot from the 2010 All-Star game if you need them. Maybe you can find the video of Sal Tinajero dancing on the jumbotron….

  11. September 6, 2013 at 6:19 pm

    I have, Greg. And you and Cynthia and Vern persist in your errors. Like I said, if you bring that same level of inaccuracy to your legal work, I pity your clients.

  12. junior
    September 6, 2013 at 7:13 pm

    I thought that might be Sal – but I wasn’t sure – you sure?

  13. BigBoxOfRedWhine
    September 7, 2013 at 5:33 am

    To Mr. Chmielewski-
    It hasn’t yet come to me, but there’s probably a better word than ARROGANCE to describe the trait that would cause residents of every OTHER city surrounding Anaheim, to expect that ONLY Anaheim residents should accept badly-negotiated contracts, and the resulting future higher taxes or service cuts, so that THEY can enjoy convenient games, and ‘regional pride’ from retaining the Angels. Pride for Anaheim residents, of course, is NOT an issue, after the Angels WENT TO COURT for the right to REDUCE our city’s part in their TEAM NAME, and now want to COMPLETE the REMOVAL in a new deal.
    By the same trait, Stadium related employees, expect ONLY Anaheim residents, especially the MANY MORE of those NOT owing part of their paychecks to some degree of City assistance or “investment”, to bear the same sacrifices.
    While Anaheim seeks funds due for a succession of million dollar police lawsuits, with another impending over election methods, we should enjoy our ‘civic pride’ instead of getting a REASONABLE RETURN on an under-developed TAXPAYER OWNED real estate parcel, waiting for the ‘trickle down” theory to work?
    Explain how THAT is supposed to happen (and, like the school exam phrase, “Show your work”!)
    Let me provide a few details that may be UNKNOWN to those who know (or care) more about baseball than City finances- (I’ll GIVE you the answers, since your knowledge of those is probably WORSE than mine on baseball trivia)-
    – “The Angels also do not pay property taxes for the approximately 160-acre stadium and parking lot, whose 2010 assessed value was more than $72 million. The property is tax exempt because it is owned by the city of Anaheim.” -2012 Register article
    – The (legacy) Disney deal for the Stadium effectively PROHIBITED collection of any admission tax.
    – Quoting the State Board of Equalization, ” Fees charged for the use of AMUSEMENT PARKS, theaters, SPORTS EVENTS, golf courses, etc., are NOT subject to sales or use taxes because there is no exchange of tangible personal property. ”
    – (except for 12 non-sports events) Moreno gets ALL Stadium revenue form ADMISSIONS and PARKING
    – The proposed lease of additional acreage is 40 years longer than the Stadium lease, and TOTALLY UNLINKED to keeping the Angels in Anaheim, and gives the city a TOTAL of 66 DOLLARS!
    To put that in context, perhaps we should compare that to the 128 privately owned, PROPERTY TAXABLE acres of South Coast Plaza, whose estimated $1.5 Billion in TAXABLE sales benefit the residents of Costa Mesa,( but you would have to ask THEM how much civic pride that includes.) Perhaps to balance the acreage, we could throw in the Harbor Blvd. of Cars – (City wide, Costa Mesa forecasts current sales tax of about $45 million and $21.5 M Property tax)
    What do YOU pay for in YOUR city, that you as a resident get LITTLE BENEFIT FROM, while OTHERS get LOTS? ANYTHING? Would YOU merely sit by and practice your deep breathing exercises when the BEST they tell you they can do is not IMPROVING what they have, but giving you MORE of the SAME? Not bloody likely!
    I already anticipate yells of “Don’t Like it? MOVE OUT!” to which I respond “YOU are the folks that want the team here for YOUR benefit – YOU should show YOUR support and MOVE HERE! Otherwise, you are just being SELFISH instead of SERIOUS!” And maybe if moving here is just TOO MUCH trouble, you could just send in a check to backfill the City’s Badly-concieved Give Away?
    Funny how the room just got really quiet!

    To Mr. Cunningham-
    Does ANYONE pity YOUR clients? Sentiment I see on the web is mostly that they deserve what they get!

  14. September 7, 2013 at 8:33 am

    Stop giving me credit for the great series of Angels articles – I’ve only been reading ‘em. But add Cynthia Ward and Ryan Cantor to your list of folks you’re calling out – they did a couple of real good ones. I doubt you’ve done anything more than quickly scan them anyway…

  15. September 7, 2013 at 9:11 am

    everyone has my cell number. Call and I promise it’s the easiest Angels quiz ever. And even then I stumped a few friends. I wouldn’t expect you to get a single one right

  16. September 7, 2013 at 12:34 pm

    Do you have any idea how dumb you’re sounding today, Dan?

    1. I already said I didn’t write any of these articles, although they make sense to me.

    2. I’m not gonna call you for your silly quiz; I haven’t been to a ball game in years and never claimed to have.

    3. It doesn’t even matter if Greg, Jason, Cynthia, Ryan, Zenger, or BigBoxofRedWhine know a thing about baseball – what they know about is the swindling of Anaheim. And that’s what the story’s about, not balls, strikes and players.

    You’re sounding more and more like a nine-year-old boy bragging about your sports knowledge. See if you can think of anything halfway intelligent to come back to BigBox’s comment.

  17. Dan Chmielewski
    September 7, 2013 at 5:08 pm

    BigBox — since you asked only one question, what do I pay for in my city that I get little benefit from yet others get lots? Easy. Irvine pays millions for the Orange County Fire Authority subsidizing fire protection in several cities throughout Orange County. I have never once called the fire department. In fact, Irvine pays so much more than our fair share we’re getting a Multi-million $$$ rebate.

    I should move to Anaheim to support the Angels. I am a Dallas Cowboys fan. Should I move to Dallas too?

  18. junior
    September 7, 2013 at 5:32 pm

    LA Times – “Angels’ Arte Moreno could pay off in a big way for city of Anaheim”

    For the 47 years the Angels have called Anaheim home, they have played in a stadium in the middle of a parking lot.

    If there is a pot of gold beneath all those parking spaces, the city of Anaheim has failed to find it. The time has come for the city to let Arte Moreno try.

    The Anaheim City Council made the right call last week, approving the parameters of a deal in which Moreno would pay for a new or renovated stadium in exchange for the right to develop the parking lot.

    http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-77314378/

  19. Dan Chmielewski
    September 8, 2013 at 9:03 am

    Bill Shankin makes an excellent case

  20. David Zenger
    September 8, 2013 at 10:25 am

    The problem with approaching things emotionally is that it tends to lead one to strange conclusions.

    You’re position is that in order to keep the Angels in Anaheim it’s worth it to give them everything under the sun. The only trouble is that the City Council has started down a path that guarantees nothing. In fact, they gave Moreno another 2.5 years to wriggle off the hook. How is that good for keeping the team in Anaheim? Moreno had essentially run out of time to move before the existing contractual opt-out date. And this means he was locked in for another 16 years. The City basically gave the guy another couple of years to hold a gun to their heads.

    Even worse, the land giveaway and incremental tax scam guarantees nothing except a huge windfall for Moreno and a perpetual drain on the rest of the city. A reasonable person might well ask why the issues of the stadium lease and the land deal were not put together in the same MOU. I already know the answer, and it doesn’t bode well for those of us who live here.

    All the other talking points masquerading as an argument are irrelevant.

  21. BigBoxOfRedWhine
    September 8, 2013 at 10:59 am

    If you reread my post carefully, I asked several. The first was how to pay for lawsuit damages with ‘civic pride’ while waiting for more than ‘trickle-down’ returns from the stadium. Props for employing the SAT test strategy of answering the ones you can, first, but the unanswered ones would still affect your score (if there was one.) I wish you had selected a less-puzzling example than the OCFA HQ, only in that the City of Irvine (where you presumably live?) DOES receive its fire protection service from OCFA,( which I doubt you can opt-out of, whether you have been a client or not), according to their website. Congratulations on your (City’s) refund. Anything refunded on those bogus hazmat inspection fees, or was that another agency?
    Charity work of the team and players aside, the Stadium and its tenant are a (quite) profitable private enterprise, not a provider of fire or any other civic service, so I’m still lost on the equivalence, but I’ll keep working on it.
    I apologize if not more clearly communicating the ‘moving’ suggestion, so let’s try again. Not that it will change their thoughts or actions, I think it unfair of those surrounding Anaheim to expect REGIONAL benefits of pride and the convenience of driving-distance games, while residents of Anaheim (Known in the Baseball world now as ‘Los Angeles’) get NO PRIDE and ALL the city-related financial loss of a giveaway tenancy deal. If you were NOW a Dallas resident, and DALLAS was foisting a crappy stadium deal on THEIR residents, then I could see your analogy. But you wouldn’t get THOSE regional benefits to DALLAS from the distance of Irvine. As I said, I’ll work on it.
    The other questions asked if you would sit idly by while a City continued mediocre performance, and if you would send in a check rather than move. At this point they can probably remain rhetorical.
    While Googling to find some of this info, I found the concept of PSL’s. Since the deal landscape is in flux at the moment, maybe Anaheim could exit not only the Management Business, but the Landlord business, and use PSLs to SELL the parcel to fans, local businesses, players(why not?) or whoever else thinks its worth a try, and with the money in a BETTER INVESTMENT, and the parcel back on the TAX ROLLS, focus on its STRENGTHS(?) at delivering municipal services, which it would now have TAX REVENUE and investment income to pay for.
    Anyway, enjoy what’s left of the weekend.-

    • September 10, 2013 at 4:30 pm

      The Cowboys Stadium cost $1.2 billion and virtually all of it was publicly financed

  22. junior
    September 8, 2013 at 11:40 am

    Don Baylor did homer for the Sox in that game, but it was Dave Henderson who smacked the dinger with one strike to go.

    And it was Tanana and Ryan and 3 days of cryin’

  23. Dan Chmielewski
    September 8, 2013 at 9:27 pm

    Junior – you’re right on Henderson. And Tanana was no doubt a great pitcher but I don’t think he ever won 22 in a season.

    Whine, the city usually has insurance to cover lawsuits. And most will be settled out of court. As far as addressing the rest of your statements presented in the form of a question, frankly no answer will satisfy you. And yes, if the Angels sell PSLs for a new stadium, I’d sign up.

    Since the Expos left Montreal for DC in 2005, due to poor attendance in Montreal, the new Nationals have done well in attendance. The last team to move prior to that was the Washington Senators who became the Texas Rangers in the early 70s. Greg mentioned Milwaukee, Kansas City and Toronto as possible candidates. Not happening (KC has a new stadium). Guess what? Angels Stadium is the 4 th oldest ballpark in the majors behindvFenway, Wrigley, and Dodger Stadium.

    The suggestion that Bill Shankin, an experienced and seasoned baseball writer, somehow doesn’t know the business side of the game is laughable. His commentary in today’s paper is spot on.

  24. David Zenger
    September 9, 2013 at 7:29 am

    I bet Bill Shankin could write all he knows about commercial development and land use manipulation in Anaheim on a piece of confetti.

    Giving away things and getting nothing back is never good business and that’s exactly what the Anaheim City Council is doing.

  25. Dan Chmielewski
    September 9, 2013 at 8:38 am

    Actually Dave, if you had read Bill’s piece in the Sunday LA Times, he went into great detail on past development efforts at the stadium site including deals offered to the Rams to stay. I’m sure YOU could write what you know about stadium economics on a single piece of graffiti.

    • David Zenger
      September 9, 2013 at 9:11 am

      I don’t find that reassuring. Did he bother write about how the City Council gave Moreno another two and a half years to seek another home, for free? Did he bother to write about all the property, sales and TOT revenue that would be diverted from the City for 66 years? Did he ask about the added tax burder that would hit the rest of us with? Did he bother ask how come there were two MOUs instead of one? Did he bother to ask why the Stadium lease and the land lease had different terms? Did he bother to ask why the two deals say nothing about Moreno building a new stadium on site with his own dough?

      Other than that I’m sure it was an outstanding bit of investigative journalism

      BTW, a find your affiliation with the local pro sports franchise kind of precious.

  26. Dan Chmielewski
    September 9, 2013 at 10:46 am

    Dave —
    there’s a little something called “space considerations.” Shankin did a fine job summarizing the inaction of Anaheim for years on the space. BTW, I’m not being paid by anyone so you can stop that rumor. Please note the line identified with the ****

    Here’s a bit of reporting from the Cleveland Plain Dealer when the news broke that owner Art Modell (same initials) had struck a deal to move the Browns to Baltimore and become the Ravens. Look at what Cleveland was offering the teams to stay and what Baltimore offered the team to come (11 years after the Colts left for Indy).

    Modell was introduced by the Maryland governor as the “owner of the Baltimore Browns” during a news conference in Baltimore to announce that the 49-year-old franchise had agreed to play in Memorial Stadium next season. The Browns will move into a tailor-made, 70,000-seat stadium at Camden Yards, next to Oriole Park, by 1998.

    “We are going to fight this fight,” White said. “I can’t say we’re not going to lose, but when it’s over, the other side’s going to know they’ve been in a fight.”

    White also called on Cuyahoga County voters to go to the polls today and approve Issue 5, an extension of the tax on cigarettes and alcohol to fund Stadium renovations. The sin tax, White said, is the last piece of the financing package to fix up the Stadium. With that in hand, he reasoned, Cleveland can argue in court and to the NFL that the Browns have no good reason to leave.

    What is at stake is a proud franchise, an economic engine and a team that has been part of the city’s fabric for half a century.

    Modell, the team’s majority owner, is leaving for money.

    “The fans have supported the Browns for years, but frankly, it came down to a simple proposition. I had no choice,” he said.

    Modell said he had been losing millions in Cleveland in recent years. Now, he will be getting one of the richest stadium deals bestowed on a National Football League team. His agreement with Baltimore, he said, was “far beyond the capacity” of Cleveland to match.

    White said the city never was given the chance. In a Baltimore news conference hours after the move was announced, he expressed anger at Modell for taking the team to Baltimore “like a thief in the night … before we had a chance to make an offer.”

    Some estimates have Modell making $30 million a year in Camden Yards.

    *****Baltimore agreed to build a modern, $200 million stadium, financed with bonds backed by a sports lottery. The Browns will play there rent-free and reap profits from all concessions, parking and signage.

    In addition, the Browns will get millions each year from the sale of 108 luxury boxes and 7,500 club seats. And they will get up to $75 million for expenses that include a new training facility from the sale of approximately 50,000 permanent seat licenses – one-time fees that give fans the right to buy season tickets.*****

    The Browns will have to market the seats themselves, so Modell is betting that fan demand is high in Baltimore. Last spring, he adamantly rejected seat licensing as a way to fund renovations of the Stadium in Cleveland.

  27. Dan Chmielewski
    September 9, 2013 at 10:48 am

    And Dave, I think it’s adorable that you post under your own name after years of posting on Tony’s site under a pseudonym…..

    Hope you find another government job soon

  28. David Zenger
    September 9, 2013 at 12:32 pm

    “…there’s a little something called “space considerations”

    There’s always room for the truth.

  29. David Zenger
    September 9, 2013 at 12:33 pm

    I see you’ve been chatting with your bunk mate Cunningham. Unfortunately he has no credible sources and I begin to think you’re both on the same payroll.

    Over and out.

  30. Dan Chmielewski
    September 9, 2013 at 6:49 pm

    And Shankin told it; you just don’t like the answer. Doesn’t change the facts he presented. It doesn’t change the fact Angels Stadium is the fourth oldest park in the nation. Doesn’t change the fact the city shouldn’t be in the stadium business. I thought conservatives like you wanted government out of things other than basic services Dave?

    If case you haven’t noticed, the rest of the nation is publicly financing stadiums with far richer deals than the one the Anaheim City Council will discuss with Moreno. We have two football stadiums in Los Angeles that aging. The two parks in LA/OC are the third and fourth oldest parks in the majors. Qualcomm Stadium is unlike to host another Super Bowl anytime soon.

    Shankin pointed out all the development proposals for the stadium area in the past that haven’t come through.

  31. Dan Chmielewski
    September 9, 2013 at 6:52 pm

    I spoke with Matt for about 5 minutes today but haven’t talked with him in quite awhile.

    I’m not on anyone’s payroll; sorry to disappoint you. But then again, do you want to explain how you’re not on Shawn Nelson’s staff anymore? Could it be comments on FFFF?

  32. Dan Chmielewski
    September 9, 2013 at 8:21 pm

    “Always room for the truth,” sure Dave. Want to start by telling the truth about some of the nasty comments you used to leave behind a fake name on FFFF? How about the reasons why you lost your job with the county. To paraphrase Jack Nicholson, you can’t handle the truth.

  33. DishonestDave
    September 10, 2013 at 9:07 am

    Zenger got fired for dishonest politicking in Shawn Nelson’s office. Dishonest Zenger, DUI Vern Nelson, jail time Jason Young are your leaders Anaheim.

    • September 10, 2013 at 4:32 pm

      What did Zenger do other than use FFFF to attack his enemies?

  34. September 10, 2013 at 11:46 am

    Uh-oh, Dan! Zenger’s on to us!

    Better call in the black helicopters for an emergency evac and transport back to Zurich for a debrief with the Illuminati!

  35. September 10, 2013 at 4:34 pm

    I think the folks in Anaheim ought to look at Cleveland and Baltimore; both lost teams to relocation (NFL) and wound up paying even sweeter deals to get teams back for the cities they lost.

    The notion that if the Angels leave, another team will gladly move into a crumbling stadium to be in this market is a fantasy.

  36. junior
    September 19, 2013 at 3:24 pm

    “#3 bang, bang…dead in the Midwest; a real tragedy; late 70s..I was in high school.”

    Speaking of Lyman Bostock:

    MLB Network to air “THE LYMAN BOSTOCK STORY” this Sunday, September 22nd

    Bob Costas Narrates Special 35 Years After the Major League Outfielder’s Murder. Bostock’s Widow, Yuovene Whistler, Speaks On-Camera For the First Time Since Her Husband’s Death. MLB Network will televise the The Lyman Bostock Story this Sunday, September 22 at 7:00 pm PST, an original program looking back on the star Minnesota Twins and California Angels outfielder who was murdered four seasons into his career at the age of 27. Narrated by MLB Network’s Bob Costas, the special marks the 35th anniversary of Bostock’s death on Monday, September 23 and features the first on-camera interview with Bostock’s widow, Yuovene Whistler, since the night she lost her husband.

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