UPDATE: It’s now official. All the networks have called The Keystone State for Hillary. So will PA now be the “key” to Hillary winning the nomination? We’ll see.

With nearly all the precincts reporting, Hillary’s looking to close with a solid 10% margin of victory. Yes, the pundit class is shocked that PA Democrats stuck with Hillary despite seeing her outspent by a 3-1 margin. This is a great night for Democrats, and a fantastic night for everyone in Hillaryland. 🙂

So what will happen tonight? Is this the end of the line, or a new beginning? And who will ultimately be celebrating what happens in Pennsylvania?

Don’t worry, my dear readers. The primary results can be found here. And of course, all the best analysis and most interesting discussion you’ll find anywhere can be found right here in this thread!

So go ahead, talk about how the Pennsylvania results can provide a real edge to the winner tonight as the overall race remains so close between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama. Go ahead and talk about how tonight’s results affect what happens next in Indiana, North Carolina, Kentucky, West Virginia, Oregon, Guam, and Puerto Rico. Go ahead and talk about how we may still be affected locally by the close Presidential race.

Go ahead and discuss what happens here… And enjoy the night. 🙂


  1. Andrew Davey
    April 22, 2008 at 5:52 pm

    OK, here are the early results with 3% reporting:

    Clinton 55
    Obama 45

    Let’s see what happens.

  2. owl06
    April 22, 2008 at 6:10 pm

    congratulations andrew! we won!!! how much did obama spend? he can’t seal the deal in the most delegate rich states that are essential for winning the election. let’s see him and his elite media pals spin this one away.

  3. Andrew Davey
    April 22, 2008 at 6:22 pm


    Yes, this is fantastic! And no matter how big media spins it, a win is a win is a win. Despite being outspent on teevee ads by a 3-1 margin and being put through some really negative politicking, Hillary won. This is quite amazing.

    And with Hillary pulling off yet another amazing victory as voters pick her as the best choice to take on the economy, health care, climate & energy, and foreign policy, she’ll have great momentum going to IN, NC, WV, KY, & OR. 🙂

  4. anon
    April 22, 2008 at 6:22 pm

    “Is this the end of the line or a new beginning”.

    I’ll take option C. Neither.

    Clinton will make a MARGINAL, almost inconsequential gain in delegates. She needs to do better than that.

  5. April 22, 2008 at 6:44 pm


    This is great news indeed. He outspent her 3-to-1 and she still managed to win. This should help her in the fund raising aspect and the momentum this gives her should carry over to Indiana.

    Barack’s media buddies will spin it by saying “she didn’t win big enough” or “he cut into her sizable lead”. Never mind the fact that she was outspent 3-to-1.

    I am sure the calls for her withdrawl will be coming from the Barack media machine by morning.

  6. April 22, 2008 at 6:45 pm

    Thanks for the invite- i am over from Hillary’s voice- luswife there- Proud Military Mom at MyDD.
    We kicked ass today in my precint- no numbers for you- gut feeling and talking all day- we have 2000 registered voters and by 4:30 we had over 830 voted, by 5 over 900. Did not get the final number before they locked the door. Lots of love for Hillary in my little bitter corner of NW PA.

  7. April 22, 2008 at 6:48 pm

    What I see, Andrew, right now, is Hillary only 4.6 points above Obama. It wasn’t long ago she was 20 above, and even yesterday folks were predicting a double-digit victory. Of course she’ll never pick up enough pledged delegates, her whole thing was to impress the supers with a spectacular Pennsylvania victory which she didn’t get!

    To answer your question, this SHOULD be both the end of the line (for Hillary’s presidential ambitions) and a new beginning (for the Dems uniting against McCain, and also for a better Senator Clinton who doesn’t need to prove how TOUGH on defense she is any more!) But of course it’s up to her still…

    And on that note, this visitor from the official Obama-endorsed blog says: 🙂

  8. April 22, 2008 at 6:49 pm

    Et tu, Sean? I didn’t know you were a Hillary supporter. Is everybody here a Hillary supporter?

  9. April 22, 2008 at 7:05 pm

    Is everybody here a Hillary supporter?

    Not Bill, Chris, Susan, or I. I’ve forgotten Ed’s preference.

  10. cjbardy
    April 22, 2008 at 7:08 pm

    Congratulations Andrew! I will be able to sleep tonight.

    So, how much did Obama spend per vote in PA? Imagine if he were a mere mortal and couldn’t outspend Hillary 3 to 1. She would have swept the floor with him.

  11. Jean Withers
    April 22, 2008 at 7:37 pm

    FOX is saying that the tone of her speech is “unifying….inspirational…..aspirational…” And,” Indiana is going to vote in record numbers. Only the politicos in Washington want to cut it off…..”Am I in Wonderland?

  12. April 22, 2008 at 7:38 pm

    “I didn’t know you were a Hillary supporter.”

    Yes Vern I am a proud supporter of Hillary Clinton. I believe Andrew, Dan and myself all support Hillary.

  13. April 22, 2008 at 8:04 pm

    I’m an Obama supporter and I believe that he did well. He raised a lot more money and ended the month in the black, Clinton in the red. He also cut her lead from six weeks ago in half.

    She won the State but she has not yet won the nomination. It’s very close and I’m happy to hear Clinton say today that she will work hard to make sure a Democrat is in the White House in 2009 even if she is not the nominee.

  14. ghost2
    April 22, 2008 at 8:24 pm

    Congratulations, everybody!! She got the double digit win!!

    To everyone who volunteered, donated, called, blogged, and otherwise supported this fantastic woman, thank you, great job, and on to IN and NC.

  15. Andrew Davey
    April 22, 2008 at 8:45 pm

    Melissa, cjbardy, Jean, Sean, & ghost-

    Isn’t this fantastic? Hill was outspent 3-1, but she still won… And likely by DOUBLE DIGITS.

    The corporate media was already preparing Hill’s obituary (again!), but now CNN just said that Hill’s raised $2.5 MILLION online just since PA was called for Hill tonight! And guess what? 80% of that money is from NEW DONORS! No one should underestimate the power of the HillStar grassroots!

    This is our night, and this is Hill’s night… No one can take that away from us! 🙂

  16. Eric
    April 22, 2008 at 11:13 pm

    Sorry 9.54% is not double digits. Obama beat expectations leaked by the Clinton campaign of 11 points. Yes he spent 3-1, but he basically spent the money to bankrupt the Clinton campaign. It looks like he did that. No one expected him to win PA. It was all about how much she won by. She netted a big 10 delegates. A win in NC and IN for Obama would erase not only that delegate lead but also the popular vote lead. Basically, things remain unchanged from where they were yesterday, except that there are ~150 less delegates.

    She is still going to lose NC, possibly IN, definitely SD (or ND whichever one is upcoming), most likely OR and MT. Yeah she will win WV and KY and possibly PR. She still can’t win the nomination. She is not going to win the nomination.

  17. Eric
    April 22, 2008 at 11:18 pm

    “Hill’s raised $2.5 MILLION online since PA was called ”

    Will she use it pay off the $6 Million in debts she owes to venues around the country? Or the $4.5 Million she owes to Mark Penn? Did she ever get those medical premiums paid for her staff?

  18. April 22, 2008 at 11:22 pm

    “She still can’t win the nomination.”

    And neither can he.

  19. Eric
    April 22, 2008 at 11:23 pm

    Correction: 9.4%. That does not even round up to 10.

  20. Eric
    April 22, 2008 at 11:26 pm

    But she will have ground to stand on to “win”

    States won? Nope
    Popular vote? Not likely
    Delegate lead? Definitely not

    The big state nonsense is just that, nonsense. There is no correlation between wins in a primary and wins in a general.

    I guess her only leg to stand on is that she has won more Democrats during the primary.

    Care to offer how she can “win”?

  21. Eric
    April 22, 2008 at 11:28 pm

    “But she will have ground to stand on to “win””

    My mind worked faster than my fingers:

    But she will have *NO* ground to stand on to “win”

  22. Andrew Davey
    April 23, 2008 at 9:33 am


    I hope you’ve calmed down since last night. ‘Cuz hey, it looks like Mr. Popular still had his behind handed to him by the smart girl.

    Hill’s raised $3.5 MILLION since last night, and SHE NOW HAS THE POPULAR VOTE LEAD. Hmmm, so does Hillary have firm ground to stand on? She most certainly does. 🙂

  23. Eric
    April 23, 2008 at 10:13 am

    “Hill’s raised $3.5 MILLION since last night, and SHE NOW HAS THE POPULAR VOTE LEAD”

    She is still at least $10 Million in debt.


    So no I have not calmed down. I am so effing tired of the Clinton lies and spin. As David Geffin said, they lie with such ease. ABC has already called her out on this. She “inaccurately” claims that ABC said this, when in fact they did not.

    If she wants to count imaginary primaries. I will gladly let her be the imaginary nominee. Meanwhile, I will be over here supporting the REAL nominee.

  24. April 23, 2008 at 10:17 am

    “If she wants to count imaginary primaries.”

    So those people who went to the polls in Florida and Michigan were “imaginary”? What a load of crap.

    If we don’t want to count their votes now because they are “imaginary”, maybe they should stay home in November when your “REAL nominee” is running. Good luck on winning the White House if that happens.

  25. Eric
    April 23, 2008 at 10:48 am

    I don’t blame the voters. This is not their fault. It is their state legislature and governor (and to some extent the DNC). But the act of voting in Jan for these two states was nothing more than practice. The voters are very real, and there voting practice will come in handy when actually voting in Nov.

    That being said, John Sidney McCain, III will be the 44th President of the United States regardless of the Democratic nominee. So I guess in the end, it doesn’t matter who wins.

  26. Northcountystorm
    April 23, 2008 at 10:59 am

    Obama (and some of his supporters( Heather comes to mind)seems to have handled his loss to Clinton in Pennsylvania with class. Obama congratulated Clinton, noted that 50% plus one vote was a win, and noted that the selection process will and should continue until the last primary election in June. This is impressive–we’ll see if he stays on that message–because he understands–and mentioned-that every vote counts and that these primary elections have resulted in unprecedented voter registration and voter turnout which would not have occurred if Clinton had quit like some of the Obama supporters and Obama leaning talking heads demanded.

    As a Californian I would have resented people demanding that the election contest be declared over before I voted.. I think the 9 million Democratic voters of Indiana, North Carolina, Kentucky, West Virginia, Montana, South Dakota, Oregon, Guam and Puerto Rico need to be heard and counted. We’ve heard the voters of Florida and Michigan but they also need to be counted. Than we can see where things stand.

  27. April 23, 2008 at 12:24 pm

    I’m very surprised at the regular comments by Hillary supporters here all blaming “the media” for Hillary’s woes and Obama’s momentum/popularity. “The Media” is a big thing, and it’s by no means uniform or unified. If you want to say “CNN/Fox/MSNBC”, fine, but that’s by no means the extent or a majority of the media in the country.

    As for FL and MI, sorry, those votes don’t count. If Obama was behind and trying to use them, just about every one of the Hillary supporters here would be calling it a desperate move. It’s not the voter’s fault, it’s the state party’s fault. But we’re past that now, and it’s over. Remember that the Democratic party is much closer to a private club than a government institution – voters are not being disenfranchised, they were screwed by their local clubs after warnings from the national org.

  28. April 23, 2008 at 12:37 pm

    ” voters are not being disenfranchised, they were screwed by their local clubs after warnings from the national org”

    I disagree. Howard Dean screwed this whole thing up. The national party organization is screwing the voters of Florida and Michigan. They are being told that they don’t count. They just might remember that come November when Howard and company come calling.

  29. April 23, 2008 at 3:06 pm

    With all due respect, Sean, I disagree with your assessment of Howard Dean’s role in this debacle.

    The rules for scheduling primaries were set out well in advance and properly noticed. The states of Florida and Michigan announced their intention to schedule their primaries in conflict with the rules. The national party warned them that there would be negative consequences. It was the subject of considerable discussion both inside the party and in the news. The full range of potential “punishment” options was also discussed in advance – with sufficient time for those two states to schedule their primaries consistent with the rules. To blame the national party is just plain wrong.

    Then again, to be fair and because I’m always eager to learn things, maybe the recitation of events I describe above is totally wrong. Exactly how did Howard Dean screw this whole thing up? What acts did he commit or omit?

    The issue of Florida and Michigan will somehow be resolved before the Denver convention. How? I don’t know and no one else does, either. In any case, this November, it will be the nominee who comes calling, not Howard Dean.

  30. Andrew Davey
    April 23, 2008 at 3:19 pm


    So now, Democratic voters need to punished for Republican operatives’ misdeeds? Howard Dean, Nancy Pelosi, Donna Brazile, and the entire cabal of top DNC officials that crafted the “death penalty” for Florida & Michigan knew that Republicans in both states were pushing to move up the primaries. This was especially the case in Florida, where the GOP-controlled Legislature and GOP Governor refused to consider ANY election protection reform (to undo the mistakes of 2000 & 2004 with voter purging and electronic voting machine uncertainties) unless Democrats agreed to move up the primary to January 29.

    So what were Democrats supposed to do? In both states, the Republicans had enough votes already to move up the primary dates. And in Florida, Dems actually had a chance to pass good election reform. What could have been done?

    I’m sorry, but this former “Deaniac” must admit that Howard Dean & Co. screwed up BIG TIME. Thanks to them, Democrats will have a harder time winning Michigan & Florida in November.

  31. April 23, 2008 at 3:46 pm

    Hey Bill lets have a re-vote in both states. Oh that’s right Obama and his supporters oppose that idea. They’d rather disenfranchise the voters of Florida and Michigan instead.

  32. April 23, 2008 at 4:27 pm

    Andrew, you would rather what had happened? That every state hold it’s primary/caucus whenever it wants? You’re not suggesting anarchy, are you? The schedule was determined in such a way as to honor the placement of Iowa and New Hampshire while simultaneously diminishing their disproportionate impact. Was the election reform in Florida signed into law? My Googling abilities must be lacking because I couldn’t find any reference to it.

  33. April 23, 2008 at 4:32 pm

    This is so close for a reason, we have two really strong candidates. Obama cut Clinton’s lead in half but she held on to win the state, a win is a win.

    It’s far more complicated than that though. All the candidates did sign on to the rules early on. Michigan and Florida did talk about re-voting and not doing that has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Obama campaign, it came down to having the money to re-vote.

    Clinton is using everything she can to argue her case just as Obama is, it’s politics and it’s part of the whole process. Right now, I’d be happy to just have a nominee so we could be tearing McCain apart, who just today announced a war on poverty. Hm, where’d we hear that before?

    I agree with Thom Hartman, they should both be focusing their criticism on McCain and let voters decide who would be best to take him on in the GE but I don’t see that happening anytime soon.

  34. Andrew Davey
    April 23, 2008 at 4:40 pm

    Bill & Heather-

    In the end, I think counting every vote is more important than punishing voters for the actions of a few politicians. Like it or not, Florida & Michigan will be part of the November election. And when a few DNC head honchos and Obama campaign strategists engage in a passive-aggressive strategy to disenfranchise Florida & Michigan Democrats, I do think this will likely come back to hurt ALL Democrats in November.


    Right on! Either all sides should agree to a revote in the two states, or all the FL & MI delegates should be seated as-is. It will be tragic if internal party politicking leads to giving John McCain a hand up in winning this November.

  35. Northcountystorm
    April 23, 2008 at 5:04 pm

    If you follow their stump speeches, 95% of their attacks are on McCain and Bush. Funny, I didn’t hear these pleas for focusing criticims on the Republicans when Obama and Edwards and Kucinich were going after Clinton in Iowa and New Hampshire.

    As for Florida and Michigan, the DNC absolutely screwed the pooch in their effort to k.a to New Hampshire and Iowa. The Republicans were smart enough not to totally disenfranchise their voters in those states–each state was penalized 50% of their delegate strength. And not a peep out of Romney who was really hurt by the 50% cut. The Democrats instead went for the nuclear option–it’s like applying the death penalty for shoplifting. And the voters weren’t the ones who did it. And in Florida, the Republicans were calling all the shots.

    With Florida, its easy because it was a level playing field–both candidates on the ballot, both didn’t campaign(some Obama carry over in Florida from a Georgia media buy but nothing more and both were allowed to attend fundraisers). Those folks need to be seated. Michigan a tougher issue because Obama was not on the ballot. You can make the case for splitting that delegation 50-50 or give Obama all the uncommitted delegates who won.

    As for anarchy, the DNC should have a say in the order of the primaries. But the political death penalty is so out of proportion to the offense that it is just further evidence about how out of touch the DNC is and how intimidated presidential candidates, Clinton and Obama included, are by Iowa and New Hampshire. For too long Iowa and New Hampshire have led the national parties around by the nose. And this mess is a result of that situation.

    The failure to follow the results in Florida and to make some accomodation in Michigan will likely result in those states, especially Florida, going Red this year. Thank you Howar Dean. And Heather, Obama’s campaign and people had everything to do with Michigan not doing another revote. They had a financing mechanism in place and the Obama supporters nixed it. Obama’s campaign would not support a revote in Florida although its probably moot because Florida chose not to revote and I don’t blame them. That was a fair election. So penalize them a percentage of their delegates and seat them. Trust me, Michigan and Florida voters will take this out on Obama if he gets the nomination. Penny wise and pound foolish because I don’t think it would overcome his expected lead in pledged delegates if he got a chunk of the Michigan delegates.

  36. Eric
    April 23, 2008 at 5:08 pm

    Hello? Obama was not on the ballot in MI so what he should get 0 delegates while Hillary gets 54% of the delegates? Umm that does not seem all that fair. And if that happens, I will campaign for John McCain. I might even change my voter registration.

    Personally, I don’t think that either MI/FL should count. Every other state was able to abide by the election calendar. But if they do, it should be a 50%+1 for Hillary for both states and the remaining 50%-1 for Obama. Basically making them inconsequential. At this point, that is the only fair option unless there is a revote, which is not going to happen.

    Moreover, McCain will win in November. Both of these candidates supporters have driven the others out. A Democrat cannot win if 1/3 of the supporters defect.

    Perhaps there is some blame to throw at Dean for this, but I really blame the states. If the Democrats in FL knew they were going to lose the election reform law which tacked on the primary date, they should have been pleading with the DNC for a solution at that time. Accepting the consequences a priori and looking for a reasonable solution. Maybe stripping half the delegates, or something. Yes the rules need to be followed, but politics also must be factored into things as well. Dean knows this. If the FL Dems hands were tied to prevent the date change, then they should have tried to work around it.

    MI does not really have an excuse. I think it is a Democratically controlled state leg. They have a Democratic Gov. And they tried to do this in 2004, and after the DNC threatened them with the same consequences, the state backed off. If the state wants to move their primary up earlier than the DNC will allow presently, they need to work on getting their people into the higher eschalons of the DNC and change the rules. If they are just going to blatantly violate the rules, then screw ’em.

  37. Northcountystorm
    April 23, 2008 at 5:34 pm

    Eric— Read my comment. I don’t think Obama should get 0 delegaes out of Michigan. I agree with you that Michigan has no excuse. I have no sympathy for the Michigan leadership–In Fact., Senator Levin has been a real instigator of messing with iowa and New Hampshire. While I agree with him, the unilateral way Michigan went about it was not acceptable. So punish the lawmakers(don'[t seat them and reward the superdelegate spots to someone else) but dont disenfranchise the voters. because Obama not on the ballot a 50-50 split would and still could be a good solution, and using the GOP solution of a 50% penalty in the delegate vote(so each delegate would count 1/2 a vote to allow all their delegates to show).

    Florida Democrats were over a barrell. They did ask the DNC to waive it because of their situation but were told no. They went ahead–not any choice really–and probably thought it would be all over early and it wouldn’t matter and they would get seated. But dont penalize the voters.
    It was a fair fight and Clinton deserves her delegates and Obama his and Edwards his. But they probably shold be penalized too and that is something that could have been done….easy….early on. Now its tough because Obama can’t put Clinton away and doesnt want to give an inch and Clinton needs every vote she can get and doesn’t want to give an inch. So its up to Dean and the DNC, who locked us into the political death penalty, to do the right thing. If they wait for the convention everyone will really be locked in based on whom they support. Dean was hoping Obama would have put Clinton away by now and then he wouldn’t have to deal with the issue. Trust me, he’d seat them all, rules be dammned, if it wasn’t this close. Sorry howard, you helped make this bed now yhou have to sleep in it.

  38. April 23, 2008 at 6:32 pm

    Andrew, thank you for your answer. But you didn’t answer my question at all. You didn’t even come close. This isn’t the first time you’ve given a no-answer answer. So now I know: Don’t ask Andrew any questions. Don’t worry. I’m not angry. Disappointed, but not angry.

    Northcountystorm, thank you for your answer. From it I actually did learn something. For that I am grateful. I infer that the legislation proposed in Florida did not pass. That tells me that the people of Florida were hoodwinked not by the DNC, but by their fellow Floridians. Considering the history there, one might think Florida Democrats would learn not to trust Florida Republicans. And as a result, Democrats everywhere are besmirched.

  39. Andrew Davey
    April 23, 2008 at 7:12 pm


    No, I think I just gave you the answer you didn’t want. That’s all. But hey, it’s funny to see your feathers ruffled over my answers. It’s just so easy to ruffle Bill’s feathers. 😉


    Wow. Brilliant analysis, as always. While I do think you’re being awfully gracious to Obamaland on Michigan, I must say that you’ve always been quite fair in your critiques of all of us. You really keep us all on our toes… While still ruffling Bill’s feathers. hehe 😉

  40. April 23, 2008 at 9:09 pm

    Northcountystorm – We didn’t have a Republican nominee at that time and you know it. There is now a Republican nominee and it’s different, period.

    I’m not going to argue the Florida and Michigan votes because I feel that the Clinton spin is so far out there that there is no way to have any productive conversation. To blame Obama and the DNC alone is unfair. Bill notes the fact that we have Florida Republicans to thank for this and that the DNC strongly came back against such tactics. Was it the best thing to do? NO, but they all AGREED to it and nothing can change that.

    I agree with Eric…

    Personally, I don’t think that either MI/FL should count. Every other state was able to abide by the election calendar. But if they do, it should be a 50%+1 for Hillary for both states and the remaining 50%-1 for Obama. Basically making them inconsequential. At this point, that is the only fair option unless there is a revote, which is not going to happen.

  41. Northcountystorm
    April 24, 2008 at 12:29 am

    Heather–I love it when someone says they are not going to argue something and than goes ahead and does it anyway.

    And please spare me the “now there is a Republican nominee and its different, period.” Really? Where is that rule? When and if you find it, please pass it on to your Obama campaign which, due to its 3-1 spending advantage, put out more negative air time than did Clinton. You’ve truly been spending too much time in the Land of Koz. No one has clinched the Democratic nomination. There are still elections going on. Those voters are entitled to the same free spirited debate as the voters in Iowa and New Hampshire. By the way, speaking of Koz, is he still waiting on the returns from the Philadelphia suburbs?

    And given the disdain that some Obama supporters have for the voters in the remaining primary states its no surprise that you and others are willing to disenfranchise 1.6 million Democrats all because it won’t work out for your candidate.

    I never blamed Obama and the DNC alone for the mess. Go back and read my comments. Dems in Michigan and Reps in Florida started this but the DNC applied the political death penalty to an infraction, unlike the GOP who had a more fitting punishment and got no heat for it. As for Obama, his campaign is to blame for not allowing a Michigan revote. And his campaign opposed any revote in Florida as well, although I conceded this was moot because Florida rightly felt they had a valid election. And the Democrats in Florida tried to comply with the DNC rules but did not have the votes. How kind of you and Eric to want to take 50% of the delegates for Obama when they weren’t earned. It might make sense in Michigan to do something like a 50-50 split but if the Obama folks don’t want to work this out , they can take the uncommitted and Clinton will take the 18 net delegate split. And Florida, the results were Clinton 50% and Obama 33%. That’s a net 38 delegates for Clinton that have been stolen unless they are counted.

    I could care less what the candidates agreed to under duress. This is the Democratic Party and , especially after what happened to Florida in 2000, we don’t want to be the Party that disenfranchises the state again. Howard Dean in drag as Katherine Harris. Wonderful.

    Bill—I didn’t forget you. I wasn’t implying what you assert. I just had not had time to check out what happened. Here it is: The Florida legislature is about 2-1 Republican and there is a Republican Governor. The Republican’s wanted to move up the Florida primary to January 29. This violated both GOP and Democratic party rules. Democrats were initially agreeable to moving it up. But after discussions with the DNC and national party leaders, the Democrats in the Legislature agreed to try and move the Florida primary to a date that the DNC would approve, in early February. They offered an amendment to do this and it was voted down on a party line vote. The primary move up was part of an omnibus election bill that contained a critical paper trail provision that the Democrats in Florida had been fighting for since the 2000 election. The Republicans said that the paper trail provision and the early primary were linked with everything else. The Democrats could not block this nor would they want to block the paper trail provision which was understandably crucial to them. So they voted for the bill, which did include the paper trail provision and which is now Florida law.. And for that, the DNC instituted the death penalty. Even after the Republican Governor signed the bill, the DNC initially said that only 50% of the pledged delegates would be striken and all of the superdelegates. Somewhere along the line Herr Dean decided to double the penalty. What a guy.

  42. April 24, 2008 at 7:41 am

    Northcountystorm, Thank you. Your reply is exactly what I had hoped to get from Andrew, bless his heart. Presuming what you say is true, and I have no reason to doubt you, it would appear that Floridians were caught in a bind and the DNC was as helpful as the local Republicans. The whole situation appears to have been handled poorly by everyone. So, now, that explains Florida. How about Michigan?

    Meanwhile, I still say that somehow both states will be seated at the convention.

  43. Northcountystorm
    April 24, 2008 at 10:36 am

    Bill–What explains Michigan? Sen. Levin and state Democratic Party leaders being arrogant and having a having a poker mentality. The DNC for trying to wish the problem away instead of dealing with it early. Obama’s campaign for killing the revote(I think the Clinton campaign would have done the same thing if the roles were reversed).

  44. April 24, 2008 at 8:23 pm

    NCS- There is no rule, just the fact that McCain is campaigning unopposed. It’s a fact. Right now, I would take Obama dropping out if it meant we would have a nominee sooner. I just think Obama is a better candidate, that my opinion.

  45. April 24, 2008 at 8:25 pm

    And the fact that she signed the agreement does not mean her delegates were “STolen”. The argument falls flat. I’m sorry. I don’t want to disenfranchise anyone but it has been decided before this in the past and those same states voted even though there was a nominee already decided. I’m so tired of the argument that this somehow is just like any other year, it’s not.

  46. Northcountystorm
    April 24, 2008 at 11:20 pm

    Heather—McCain is not running unopposed. If you listen to the CLinton and Obama speeches, virtually all are attacking the Bush-McCain team.
    People are energized, massive voter registration, huge increases in small donors, huge vote turnouts in states that never had that in primaries. . You’ve had your vote count , don’t deny it to others. They want their say too and since no one has clinched the nomination its just wrong do cut them out. Period.

  47. Dan Chmielewski
    April 25, 2008 at 8:28 am

    At the time of the Michigan and Florida primaries, Edwards and Richardson were still active and viable candidates. You can’t give 50% minus one to Obama when its more likely in a competitive environment, Edwards and Richardson woudl have locked down votes too. Why Obama didn’t get on the bandwagon on MI and FL is a mystery

  48. April 25, 2008 at 11:42 am

    There are obviously strong feelings about this, along with blame enough for everyone involved to share. I’m sure it’s all very wonderful to put the onus on this one or that. But it amounts to a mountain of nothing. Regardless of how the situation evolved, it is today what it is. Assigning blame or creating villains does not create solutions — or even move anyone closer to one. The more productive discussion, for everyone other than historians, is to suggest reasonable and fair solutions — the key words being reasonable and fair. That probably means no one gets everything they want or feel entitled to and just as importantly, no one is short changed. It’s called politics: the art of compromise.

  49. April 25, 2008 at 11:50 am

    Bill – Amen!

     NCS – I blame the media, it’s much more interesting and profitable for this primary to drag on as long as possible.  But if both Obama and Clinton stopped attacking each other it would leave the media with nothing to cover but their attacks on McCain.

Comments are closed.