25 comments for “Did Movement By OC Conservatives in 2005 Hurt Firefighting Efforts This Week?

  1. October 28, 2007 at 3:33 pm

    I didn’t know the “Anti-Tax, Anti- Union OC Conservatives” included the AOCDS and OCEA. That post is a hack job.

  2. RHackett
    October 28, 2007 at 7:10 pm

    Nice deflection Jubal. Are you going to tell us with a straight face that OC conservatives didn’t have a role to play in defeating Measure D? The two entities you mention went to John Lewis to help shape their message.

    I challenge you, Fleischman, Schroeder, Greenhut, the OC GOP and the others to tell the citizens of OC why you believed that defeating was in their best interests.

    I won’t hold my breath. For one thing, I know you and the others don’t have the guts.

    You and Fleischman especially posted your interviews of John Lewis congratulating him on his victory. You overlooked the gaming of the process by Campbell to confuse the voters. You called them thoughtful. If memory serves me correctly. The Supervisors involved in opposing D (Campbell, Norby, and now Moorlach), the Sheriff, and DA will now have to live with the consequences of those actions and explain to the citizens why they played politics with public safety.

    You won. The people lost. Congratulations.

  3. October 28, 2007 at 8:02 pm

    Blah, blah, blah, RHackett. Arguing the merits of Measure D and the consequences of its defeat is one thing.

    Trying to exploit the fires by concocting a blame-game pinning it on conservatives is stupid and ignorant. Which explains why you agree with it.

  4. Stop the blaming
    October 28, 2007 at 8:07 pm

    Measure D was unfair to law enforcement and the DA office. The people voted it down. Period!

  5. RHackett
    October 28, 2007 at 8:56 pm

    sJubal. Are you saying conservatives had no part in its defeat? Surely you jest. Harry Siddhu (a conservative) is quoted in that blog entry as saying there was no consequence to its defeat.

    You cited two groups that are not considered conservative as opposing Measure D. Compare that with literally dozens of individuals who called for its defeat. The BoS (except Correa). The DA, Treasurer, Sheriff, Auditor Controller, Dick Ackerman, Chuck Devore, Todd Spitzer, Dana Rohrbacher, Tom McClintock, the OC GOP (Baugh and Schroeder) and Steve Greenhut to name a few. That doesn’t include you, Jon Fleischman, and your forgery artist mentor John Lewis. Where are they now in support of their decisions and the consequences of those decisions. I’m actually not surprised you try to deflect attention from yourself and your conservative ideologues. The party that claims to embrace personal responsibility rarely accepts it when it has negative reactions.

    So explain to me why blaming all those conservatives attached to that decision is ignorant and stupid.

    Stop the blaming. You’ve probably forgotten. An article in the OC Register written by the news staff (and not the moonbat editorial staff) got direct quotes from the BoS citing there would be no cuts to law enforcement if it passed. That was always a red herring and everyone knew it.

    I would like to see all those who opposed Measure D (conservative and liberal) to step up and explain there actions and justify it vis a vis the consequences.

    The only group that has comported themselves with anything resembling dignity has been the firefighters and OCFA Board of Directors. I have yet to read any of them saying “I told you so.” Something they could easily do and anyone with any sense would agree.

  6. Dan Chmielewski
    October 28, 2007 at 10:28 pm

    Interesting to see Todd exposed for playing both sides in the wake of the fires.

    But perhaps its not too late for Todd to help legislatively and help get the fire departments the equipment they need for the next big fire.

  7. October 28, 2007 at 11:01 pm

    Matt Cunningham and his Reep friends were the ones who were “Stupid and Ignorant.” But Matt is right about one thing…Nick Berardino and Wayne Quint have blood on their hands too. It is intellectually dishonest to let them off the hook.

    They, along with Bill Campbell, John Lewis, Matt Cunningham, etc., all richly deserve the blame now being heaped upon them.

  8. October 28, 2007 at 11:43 pm


    It’s hard to keep up with the straw men you keep whipping up. I made a simple point: the Calitics post’s premise — that the fight against Measure D was orchestrated by anti-union, anti-tax conservatives — is patently, demonstrably false.

    If you want to continue manufacturing arguments and then attribute them to me, go right ahead.

    Also, breathing into a paper bag will help with the hyperventilation.

  9. RHackett
    October 29, 2007 at 10:12 am

    Jubal. You are hysterically funny. Where is the straw man? I only pointed out that conservatives went on a jihad to defeat a measure that would have enhanced fire protection in the county pushing aside any arguments of public safety. Are you going to deny that didn’t happen? The GOP in this county likes to tout its influence within the political realm of this arena. And you can’t deny that group only opposed that initiative along with the OC chapter of the CRA. If it is hard for you to keep up it is only because there is so much for you to explain. And you know you can’t.

  10. RHackett
    October 29, 2007 at 10:16 am

    And one last point I forgot to include. The only reason anyone is discussing this issue at all is because Bill Campbell and Todd Spitzer decided to grab a headline bemoaning the lack of fire resources. It is interesting to me that writers from the OC Register (hardly a liberal publication) have deemed it newsworthy to hold them accountable for those actions in opposing Measure D. Pointing to the destruction of wildfires as a result of that action isn’t a lot of dots to connect.

    Unless of course you deem it yet another straw man argument.

  11. October 29, 2007 at 1:20 pm

    You can try to laugh off the facts, but they don’t go away, RHackett.

    I’d say in the neighborhood of 90% of the campaign funds for the No on Measure D campaign came from county public employee unions, mainly the AOCDS and OCEA. How does that make the No on D campaign a conservative jihad?

    Of course there were a lot of OC Republicans opposing Measure D. Nobody has denied that. But you also had a number of OC Republicans supporting Measure D.

    And let’s not forget that since 73% of the voters rejected Measure D, a lot of Democrats voted against it too.

    But the decisive factor in defeating Measure D were the campaign funds provided by the county government unions.

  12. RHackett
    October 29, 2007 at 2:09 pm

    Jubal. I’m not laughing off the facts of where the funds came to fight Measure D. It is something short of irony that a group like the OC GOP who despises unions aligned themselves.

    While there were GOP’s that supported the issue there are two critical factors you want to conveniently ignore. Almost all of County management (the BoS,Sheriff, DA, Treasurer et al) are registered with the GOP. That same group was almost unified in its opposition. One could easily conclude their constituents would accept their opinions as their elected leaders and make the decision to reject Measure D. Given the margin of defeat one can conclude that voters other than GOP voted it down. But the fact remains had the conservative establishment now bemoaning the lack of resources supported the issue it would have had a greater chance of passage. Unless there was a drastic change in voter demographics of which I am not aware. I don’t see any of the democratic leadership you would like to also blame grabbing media regarding the lack of support from the state as Campbell and Spitzer are doing.

  13. October 29, 2007 at 3:05 pm


    So when is OC Supervisor Bill Campbell going to announced changes in Prop. 172 funding…as per Measure D? If he is serious about the need to fund the OC Fire Authority, shouldn’t we expect that announcement sometime soon?

    BTW, when are all of you Reeps who opposed Measure D going to apologize to the people of Orange County?

    And when are YOU going to tell us who gave you the legal documents YOU posted on the Urell Amigos site – you know, the ones that illegally outed the molestation victims? How dare you even show your face here or anywhere else while THAT is hanging over you?

  14. St Mathew
    October 29, 2007 at 4:12 pm


    Art’s got a point! Matt when are you going to come clean on the leaked documents that you posted and inadvertently outted the diocese sexual victims? Your credibility is very questionable while your hiding the masterminds or fools that literally screwed that up.

    As for D, the OCFA board got greedy. There could have been a negotiated agreement, but some flushed with success of prop 1A thought they could force issue at ballot box. Mistake was leaving funds open to board use. They should have targeted needs and specified expenditures. They gave a wish list and promises but initiative language did not match. Voters have always supported equipment for out firefighters and law enforcement workers. This battle however was pitched as being cops & da vs. overpaid firefighters. Many of the list of characters from this thread talked about the Taj Mahal. salaries and lines of applicants for even a single job opening. So much blame goes around for both sides not wanting to work this out. The unions were used to fund the battle and pay for the campaign(s). Add it up, there are just more cops and court employee’s than firefighters in county unions. So the support sources were not a suprise.

    Bottom line, OCFA has made great investments in fighting fires in homes, buildings and now highrises. No shortage of training and equipment exists in these areas. Take a look at all the wonderful facilities at the headquarters. But the same investment has not been made for brushfires. For this you need to look to the board, there seems to be an attitude that if you live in the canyons “its a risk you take”.

    Not saying which direction is right, but to see the politicians who had taken such strong positions not only against D, but against a settlement prior to the ballot effort is tough to take for many.

  15. Dan Chmielewski
    October 29, 2007 at 4:34 pm

    Guys — the Mnsgr Urell discussion has nothing to do with this post; deal with it elsewhere.

    Matt is welcome here, as is Art as is Chuck DeVore as is Adam Maserati as it Father Flesichman; please stay on topic.

  16. d'Anconia
    October 29, 2007 at 4:50 pm

    “And when are YOU going to tell us who gave you the legal documents YOU posted on the Urell Amigos site – you know, the ones that illegally outed the molestation victims? How dare you even show your face here or anywhere else while THAT is hanging over you?”

    There it is!!

    I was patiently waiting for the moment when Art would resort to character assassination while trying to prove his point. Purely part of his m.o.

  17. A former Republican
    October 29, 2007 at 4:55 pm

    Frankly this was a badly flawed measure, with the fire union over-reaching, and not being specific. For most of the county, that isn’t covered by OCFA, it was unclear how we would benefit, and where the resources would go. For the 1.6 million people in cities not covered by the Fire Authority, and not close to the wildlands and brush fire problem, it makes sense for the people who choose to live in fire prone areas to pay more for the services that they need.

    On the other hand, you haven’t seen any of our local legislators doing anything except pointing fingers. Bush has crippled the Forest
    Service, failed to provide equipment, privatized services that should have been public, as has the Governator, and now they’re all swarming to blame the government that they have been destroying.

    The Republicans are the party of tax cuts, corruption, borrowing, and greed. Don’t ask them for any positive solutions, or ask them how they are going to pay back the trillions of dollars that they have borrowed to finance Bush’s wars or the tax cuts for the rich.

  18. St Mathew
    October 29, 2007 at 5:01 pm

    The board of Supervisors has it in their power to use the surplus 172 funds today! They could move for purchase or contract with air fire services to protect Orange County. This would make the issues countywide not limited to OCFA supported cities.

  19. RHackett
    October 29, 2007 at 8:03 pm

    Who else here besides me has enjoyed listening to John and Ken filet Bill Campbell and Todd Spitzer? When Campbell tried to explain his motivation for putting three counter initiatives on the ballot as some type of altruistic choice he was called a liar. Which he is in this case. Anyone who knows anything about politics knows the more issues on a ballot the more likely the public will vote NO on all of them. Which is precisely what happened.

    The chickens have come home to roost.

  20. October 29, 2007 at 9:30 pm


    You got it! Campbell has two choices: resign or propose to immediately put in place what Measure D would have accomplished. If he does otherwise, he is done in politics.

    Didn’t Campbell put Matt/Jubal on a County Commission? And wasn’t it Campbell that tried to put Urell on a Commission?

    Campbell just doesn’t get it. Never has and never will.

  21. d'Anconia
    October 30, 2007 at 12:27 am

    “Campbell has two choices: resign or propose to immediately put in place what Measure D would have accomplished. If he does otherwise, he is done in politics.”


    Campbell is fine and will be fine until he is termed out. Your comments would hold a lot more weight (some?) if you didn’t aim for the radical fence every time.

  22. October 30, 2007 at 1:09 am

    Art, since you seem to have all the answers, perhaps you can point out exactly what difference adoption of Measure D would have made in fighting the Santiago fire.

  23. October 30, 2007 at 10:37 pm


    I don’t think my comments were radical. Campbell tried to appoint Urell to a County Commission. He scuttled Measure D. And he backed Carona. Strike 3 – he ought to be out!

  24. October 30, 2007 at 10:38 pm


    I will answer you on my own blog.

  25. RHackett
    October 31, 2007 at 9:57 am


    Great response to Jubal. I’m sure he’ll just write off the OCFA chief’s remarks as another straw man.

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